I returned to the BatCave last night for their Tuesday tournament. This is now my fifth time playing the tournament since the room opened, and it is my fourth time being one of the first players out. In some of my earlier sessions, my loss came as a result of some admittedly lackluster play, but last night’s session was simply one of those sessions when you cannot win a coinflip.
Now a day later and a $130 short, I’ve been thinking a lot about one particular hand/play of which I am unsure. At the time, I had a read and went with it, and overall, I think it was the right play, but I also worry that I was too aggressive. Perhaps you might have a thought or two on the subject.
I had worked my original 5k stack up to about 8.5k after getting paid off with AA early and turning a set with 55. I had watched one player, a bald guy with thick glasses who looked both bookish and dumb at the same time. In the earlier hand, he bet preflop, was raised by an aggressive player, and called the raise. The money went in on the flop, and he showed 57c, which ironically was now ahead of his opponent’s J9o. I now knew that this guy is willing to bet light. Other hands confirmed this suspicion, although not as concretely.
In the subject hand, I held 77 in the BB. It folded to Baldy in the CO, who raised to 450 with blinds of 50/100. The SB called and I decided to raise to isolate against Baldy or perhaps take down the pot immediately. I had a good feeling that he was raising light, but I was not sure how light. The SB was of mild concern, so I decided to raise to 1,650 in order to make it clear that I had a strong hand.
The action was back on Baldy and after a bit of hesitation, he opted to push all-in for 5,675 total, or 4,025 more to me. The SB grumbled and folded, and I sat for a minute thinking about what to do.
I stared at my opponent and he gave off the classic lockdown tell. For those who do not know what I am talking about, a brief explanation. When a player is bluffing or is weak, they can often try to go into tell lockdown to avoid doing anything to induce a call or raise. Essentially, they lock up, don’t move, don’t react to any conversation, and basically act like a statue. This guy went entirely into lockdown, even going so far as to leave his arm extended in a locked position, lest pulling his arm back would make him look weak.
In spots like this, I sometimes like to talk to get an idea of what is really going on in my opponent’s head. I took my time considering the action and staring down my opponent before announcing, “I’m not that strong, but I think I am ahead. The real question is do I want to gamble.” I let that hang in the air. He didn’t move. He didn’t react. Hell, I wasn’t sure if he was breathing. BUT, I was sure he did not have pocket Tens or higher. He was clearly scared.
I considered the fact that even with a crap hand like KJo, he’d have two overs, but ultimately, I let my stack be the deciding factor. I had enough to cover him with about 2-3k left, which was more than 1/2 the starting stack, so I decided to go with my gut and call.
He had AQo. The flop was AQJ, and I never caught up. I shook it off and kept playing, pushing with 88 over a shortstacked player who held J9o. He flopped his nine. I then pushed again with 88 into a player with two overcards, which he hit on the flop as well.
That was it for me. From table chip leader or thereabouts to busto in three hands over the course of one orbit or so.
On one hand, I am glad I went with my gut and I was correct about him not being in a dominant position. Hell, I think I was also right that he did not want a call. However, in the end, was it a correct call? Was there a better way to play this hand? You decide, because I still am not sure.
Until next time, make mine poker!
April 13th, 2011 - 5:58 pm
I don’t think you were wrong to go with your gut. I also think it’s problematic, the moment that your opponent thinks that they can simply run you over. Therefore, you don’t want to give them the notion that they can do so by shoving over your raises / bets / etc. From that perspective, I agree with your call.
However, you 3bet and CALLED a 4bet shove. Even if he’s weak and your read is correct, do you perceive him as having 66 or below? How about 7x or below? It sucks that to him, he’s weak, and to you, he’s weak, but his weak hand is still a coin flip with you… at best, most of his hands are coin flips to yours. I tend to avoid those coin flips early in a tournament. I want to survive; a double up is great, but I want to take minimal risk to get there.
Finally, what’s up with 3betting 77? I understand you’re squeezing, but you’re getting great odds to see a flop cheaply with a disguised pocket pair. Take the flop and minimize variance because you know that unless you hit your 7, you’re unlikely to be happy with most flops.
April 13th, 2011 - 7:06 pm
Sometime you eat the bear and others the bear eats you. I don’t have any problem with your play. But, it does show why Negreenu is a proponent of small ball poker.
Unfortunately, some people/tables don’t let that work. Your table was a series of gambler plays. And, luck wasn’t on your side. The hands were coin flips. It is why you have more variance than many others. On another night you’ve a huge stack and the opportunity to run over the table.
I’m not criticizing. If I were asked to, I’d guess that you play in one gear more than most. I know that isn’t always your game. You do well playing SnGs and that’s more disciplined in some stages. Can you see a difference between those and your live play? My guess is you might.
April 13th, 2011 - 7:39 pm
Well, first off, I agree with the Meister – in the second level out of position, regardless of your read I feel like flatting with 77 preflop is the smarter play. It’s early – I would see some cheap slots with hands like 66 and higher, especially OOP. Unfortunately for the Batcave it isnt as if we are playing with 250BB where we can play a little fancier – as a result, position is paramount in comparison to a cash game, where you could afford to make that read.
However, what I think is most important is something I also struggle with – becoming married with your read. Lockdown can mean a lot of things – and it is easy for us to become stone cold convinced that prior actions could inform that he was weak. If I had seen him lock down previously, I might also draw a completely different conclusion – I just think that this early in the tournament, chip preservation has it’s place, especially when making an OOP raise.
April 14th, 2011 - 9:30 am
I like to fold small pairs like that in this spot. Even when you are more or less totally right and he has crap, he’s going to turn over a hand like T9s or KJo and *still* be 50% to beat you. Why do that in the second round of a tournament, especially when you’ve worked your way up 60% above the starting stack early and can thus afford to lose some chips but survive to fight another day.
When I am easily dominated, and even if I’m right, I still don’t like my chances, I am generally looking for an excuse to fold early in a tournament. Pot odds has to count in the equation of course, but I am guessing I would have folded the 77 in this spot. I’m even folding 88 and probably 99. TT I’m not so sure, though that is a really close decision to me.
April 14th, 2011 - 12:15 pm
I think flatting his raise is the most chips I get in preflop. You have a lot of options after the flop, but really you are 50% at BEST preflop. Why get a lot of chips in with those odds?
I will even fold some of the time like HOY. You are really only hoping for a set or OESD. Not many scenarios will you win post flop with that hand and if you do, it’s not like you are getting it all in with a bunch of overcards on the board so you are not getting great implied odds either.
April 14th, 2011 - 3:07 pm
[...] Jordan’s post about this has comments. Mine hints more than helps. Hoyazo nails the thought much better. What he describes is what I would say is what passes for my A-game and otherwise things hit the lower side. I’ll admit that was harder for me to accomplish over time. I’ve referred to it as my boredom tilt. It is a 180 from what Hoy is saying. I’d get bored and go looking for the coin flips. [...]
April 14th, 2011 - 3:17 pm
Here is a little support for you from P* Lima reporting:
12:30pm: First man down
Twenty-two minutes into Level 1, we had out first casualty. Shirley Rosario had crippled her opponent early on and finished him off in brutal fashion. He opened, Shirley raised to put him all in and he called. Shirley and her pocket treys were racing against Q-9. Her opponent flopped a 9, but she rivered a trey win the pot with a set.
I’ll pass on further comment about the skill of her opponent. She evidently had a “Jordan read” on the guy.
April 14th, 2011 - 3:52 pm
I like set mining in your spot with sevens and a big stack… of course I waffle a lot! heh. If you ARE going to play this hard in that spot one thing I might consider. If you re-raise to 1600.. someone is going to think your squeezing and then they are going to say “Shit I can jam him in”.. if you put all your chips in then sometimes it scares the tarded people… there is no option to “outplay” you or “scare you off the hand”.. so you *might* get a fold in that spot more often with a jam.. your read was right.. you just did not anticipate him jamming his shit hand… Actually I also think that AQ probably never folds in that spot because retards like that think AQ is da nutz! Hoyazo probably likes AQ.
April 20th, 2011 - 10:05 am
I don’t hate your 3 bet here. This is a place I like to just call and see a cheap flop, but there’s also enough out there to make it worth ending the hand early, and you’re up against a late position raiser. He’s easily laying down a decent percentage of his range here. Problem is your also now building a pot that makes shoving his stronger hands the right move. Not the end of the world, but that’s just when you have to fold.
I think the mistake you made was that you wanted too much to be clever. We like to over think things sometimes and ignore that often the right move is right in front of us. You made a read and you wanted more to affirm your read than make the right play, because you yourself knew that even the crappy part of his range was likely to hold 2 overs. Knowing that what’s the right choice? Flip for 75% of your stack early or fold and move on?